To stake or not to stake. Is staking a thing of the past?

My stake completed early this year, and I’ve been trying to figure out whether to restake or not…

This brings up several questions:

Multi Chain/L2’s:
Listening to the recent community call, it seems a lot of effort has been surrounding launching on multiple chains/L2s. Stakers like myself can’t make an educated decision on this specific topic because we don’t know if yield share is cross chain. If I stake 100,000 SOV on RSK, and the majority of activity end up on BOB, B², Sovryn Layer etc… am I essentially tossing my money to a dying chain? Or will these profits be split? This is very obscure. Trying to find information on this is daunting and never fruitful. Why is this not talked about? Isn’t staking the bread and butter of the Sovryn mission?

“Sovryn Money Market”:
On the Community call, Sovryn Money Markets were discussed. It was said that people could lend their BTC and earn yield (5-6%) APR. “People are interested in up to $50million per month.” Do stakers earn anything from that? If so, it was said that this would be on BOB chain, in which my first question applies as well. Only stakers on BOB? We discussed this and decided we would “Discuss it further later” when we were talking about deploying to bob. In which a “Multisig” wallet was going to be used for BOB rewards. Is it still not time to discuss this? Who decides when it’s time?

BOS SIP:
Yago said in the community call that Sovryn is currently the biggest contributor to BitcoinOS, yet we have no information on whether their will be an airdrop, what it will be, or the function of the token itself. Again… as a staker how are we expected to make an educated decision when the outcomes are so obscure? I don’t like the idea of just hoping for the best.

Misc:
There are a lot of upcoming things like the B Squared launch and such. Do these benefit stakers? If so, how? And again, are they only stakers for certain chains?

Sovryn is a very solid project, but it seems that some very important things are too opaque to make solid decisions especially for the Users that are making project decisions/voting (Stakers).

Is there a timeline for when these things will be decided? As a staker, I’m here for yield and it sucks to see my stake sit around and do nothing while I await the information stream.

Sovryn was originally focused on stakers, and incentivizing staking. Has this narrative changed? If so, who made that decision? Not enough information is being given to stakers on multiple topics… Why?

It feels like we have lost our way. It’s hard for me to believe I’m the only long term staker that feels this way, but it seems I’m the only one that has decided to speak up. “Privileged information” is the enemy of decision making, and it’s probably the root of all the “Conspiracy theories” which Yago mentioned during community call.

Is the ideology of being a Sovryn investor searching for Bitcoin yield dead? If not, why aren’t stakers incentivized and being given enough information to make informed investment decisions with their hard earned money?

The forum is all but dead so I suspect this writeup is meaningless, but watching the amount of VP slowly trickle away from the project made me think it was worth my time.

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In SIP 77 (SIPS/SIP-0077.md at main · DistributedCollective/SIPS · GitHub) a vote was taken to provide additional SOV rewards to compensate for the uncertainty in the multi-chain transition.

Excellent post.
I’m sure it reflects a thought shared by a great many (if not all) of stakers.

Hopefully you have all the answers!

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Very well said with many important questions asked.
If you were to rename the heading of this thread to: “Petition for the redress of grievances” well…that’s something I could sign my name to.
Yago has just attempted to hide behind SIP 77, not understanding that it in no way indemnifies him, or other project directing members of core, from the consequences of their decisions.
Yes, it’s true, we did pass SIP 77, but also no, we did not have a vote for BOS to be a separate project apart from Sovryn. Yes, it’s true, we did vote to launch on BOB, but also no, we did not have a vote deciding how revenues from that platform were going to be distributed, or if they would even be shared at all.
At the end of the day the market is the arbiter of what is true, so I HOPE (because hope is all we really have) that core will re-discover its integrity and that they will begin to make wiser choices.

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I understand your sentiment, although I have no animosity towards team, I can understand your frustration.

The problem with BIP 77 is that it doesn’t really cover what’s going on now. Do BOB stakers receive any of the BOS SIP (provided there is one at this point)? Has that been decided? If not, when will it? Will the “Sovryn money markets” provide rewards to stakers at all? If so, is that only on BOB? Will B² have any yield from amm’s, if so will that go to BOB, RSK, or a separate group of stakers?

How can we weigh the 10% OSOV reward against those metrics if they have no answers? Is the 10% there for the purpose of not having to provide answers?

Obviously it’s a lot of information, but a blanket statement could fix the problem. Either all chains will split rewards based on VP, or each chain/L2 will stay with its own stakers. Is there a technical reason why a decision can’t be reached on that?

The same thing with the BOS SIP… Either we are getting the 10%, or we are not. On the community call Yago said something about other SIP’s need posted first, but it’s hard to understand what technical challenges need to be confronted before that question can be answered. If The outlook is bleak, rip the bandage off so us stakers can make a decision on whether we want to restake, hodl, or dump.

I hate to leave money sitting around because of poor dialogue.

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Adding on that very good points, to me it’s at least a bit ‘not in line what bitocracy was ought to be’ if core now makes “money markets” and all that other things being developed now… yet OneDigit seems to be left alone trying to fiddle together a solution for a product named Zero that was already developed & working (even if for short time).

So far I got the impression He even needs to check with Devs if a Zero-SIP even makes sense.
How come it’s not the other way around?

I get that not all decisions and information can (or should) be shared… but seriously… this whole project is getting black boxed more and more with even more unclear intentions.

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Also while I’m at it…

Yago, I related to your visions and I agree it’s maybe important to have them formulated on a higher level (like here: What does Sovryn mean to you? - #3 by yago)

But I really think you are doing a great disservice when replying to (imo) well formulated and reasonable questions about the protocol and it’s plans by the thread starter by kind of ‘brushing it off’ attitude like ‘you voted for it, there’s rewards’ … but finding the time for all this futuristic high level head-in-the-air things… while at the same time no one knows if there are boots-on-the-ground …and which ground even.

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Is an SIP appropriate for any of these questions?

Maybe a SIP that says: Staking fees among separate chains will be split evenly amongst all stakers based on their VP. And the SIP forum post could hash that out…(For the multi chain related question.) Or maybe we decide something else based on community/teams inputs and ideas?

An SIP that says: A fixed percentage of money market fees will be split evenly amongst stakers. For the Money market fee question. In which hopefully team could reply to the forum post to help guide us, as I don’t truly understand it and wouldn’t know a fair starting point. Maybe we decide stakers get none at all, but at least we will know!

Proclamation SIP for BOS incubation: Asking BOS to give us confirmation, as we’ve been “Incubating” them for almost a year at this point and we have no solid pledge. Maybe team could help guide us along here as well?

Do any of these seem appropriate? Or is it common/should we just wait for team to clarify this? I realize devs and team members have better things to do than play bureaucracy with the plebs. I don’t want to be rushy, or impatient, but it’s been more than a half a year since BOB started being worked on, it’s been almost a whole year since BitcoinOS was announced, and while Sovryn Money Market is new, better to open dialogue sooner rather than later.

None of this seems like it would be super time consuming for team to clarify. A 2 or 3 minutes reply seems like it would clear it up, so it leads me to assume team doesn’t have an answer. In that case, why don’t we figure it out? Is there a benefit to delay? I’m just trying to open some honest, clear dialogue to try and inform current and future stakers, with their current and future stakes.

SOV is not doing very well. I assume most stakers will empathize with me, it breaks my heart to see the project like this and a clear path forward for stakers is very much needed.

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Thanks for this thread! I’m a long Sovryn supporter and I’m still going along 100% with its mission. I also like the idea of raising Sovryn to a whole new booster platform for sovereignty. But here’s a big BUT.

I was kind of shocked when listening to the October community call. It feels like “no foundation”, “no stable roots”, “nothing substantial one can build a community let alone a business on”. Why?

Sovryn started as a revolutionary Bitcoin DeFi platform on the L2 that was ready for it at the time - Rootstock. @yago said himself that financial sovereignty is the basis for all other sovereignty aspects of life. Now, we keep on saying we are market leader on Rootstock, on BOB etc. But what does market leader there mean? It means to be a leader on L2s that very few people are interested in. Why is this the case? Because they are not (yet) 100% suited for efficient DeFi services. That is why BitcoinOS came into play. Here’s the possibility to build a revolutionary network layer where Bitcoin DeFi is possible exactly in the efficient, non-custodial, private way that’s worthy of being called sovereign finance. Once BOS is live, it was our hope that Sovryn will become what it always wanted to be - the best and most sovereign finance platform for a new Bitcoin age.

And then, what do we have to hear at the October community call? It’s boring to compete with a couple of other projects who are intending to do the same? That we gotta think further about all the other beautiful things now up for discussion in the “what’s Sovryn for you” thread?

What?

Yes, these topics are super important and a direction we can help carry human consciousness towards. BUT!

But on which basis?

Firstly, I want to say thank you for the tireless work of the Sovryn developers and their support on Discord, Telegram etc. It’s amazing! And I wish you had more financial and man-power support for what you are doing. Please keep that appreciation in mind when continuing to read.

DeFi on Bitcoin is still revolutionary after three years of Sovryn’s existence! Sovryn, @yago … we are many years ahead of everybody else. Not even the maxi Bitcoiners have understood why they need DeFi on Bitcoin. They are getting it slowly only now, while former hero Michael Saylor talks patronizingly about that privacy and self-custody are only for paranoid crypto anarchists. And in this unfolding environment that Sovryn helped prepare the ground for, we don’t want to continue building out our half-baked DeFi applications on Rootstock, BOB and maybe, maybe BOS?? Now is the time to make these apps, or at least one app on one of the chosen L2s so convincingly perfect for self-sovereign finance, that we as Sovryn community can go out there with a fully convinced open heart and say to family, friends and colleagues “Man, you gotta use Sovryn. It’s so good!” The problem is, we can’t say that right now. Sovryn DeFi is half-baked and not useable even by those who I see as target group.

Of course Rootstock, BOB, BOS want Sovryn to commit to building a well-functioning DeFi platform on their L2. Because they, and we the community too, finally want a functioning sovereign finance application! This is what we signed up for first and foremost. This is why we are staking and contributing in the way we can! And we haven’t reached that goal yet. Here some examples for why not:

  • Traders don’t use Sovryn because the trading environment is not working reliably. Charts aren’t properly presented. It’s still “alpha” and not integrated in the latest Sovryn Dapp. Functionality is unreliable and clonky-looking. There are no proper statistics and analysis tools. If I show it to my trader friends, they have a quick look and tell me: “What? This is unusable for what I want. Have you seen where I’m trading? Before it doesn’t look remotely like that, I can’t be interested in Sovryn”.
  • Many people now ask for borrowing against Bitcoin. Only custodial services out there. I show them Sovryn, there’s Zero and regular borrowing. They look at Zero’s collateral ratio of 1100%. They laugh at me and ask what else? Regular borrowing. At the time of writing a DLLR borrowing interest rate of 120% for DLLR. They laugh even harder. I start explaining why this is the case, but they already left.
  • The UX got better, yes. But we are building a platform where people are supposed to do their life financing on. It should scream “We know self-custody is scary. But we got you. Sovryn is safe and fool-proof to use.” It doesn’t do that. Or do people have fun trading their runes on Sovryn because it looks so cool? No.
  • Sovryn is not active on and doesn’t promote the one promising global platform that stands in for sovereign communication – Nostr?
  • And these are just my interest areas … the list goes on.

Sovryn is like a script running in a keyboard terminal. The developer is presenting it as the market leader on an OS that only 10,000 people use globally, because it has virtually no competition and uses the easiest command words. I thought we were building the perfect GUI for selected L2s now, especially for BOS. I thought we make Sovryn what it was meant to be – the operating system for sovereign finance globally! Instead, it’s boring to compete with other DeFi projects and we move on? Hang on a minute.

There’s so much still to do, so much to be done to finally fulfil Sovryn’s mission on the finance level. The world needs it now. Not 3 years ago, now. Now is the time. Sovryn needs to be the strong basis, the foundation for Sovryn finance. If it is successful in that, it will be able to convincingly take on all the other topics @yago mentioned. There’s no basis for that. There’s nothing 100% convincing to show for just yet.

@yago is again many years ahead of the world in terms of envisioning a world on Bitcoin. I love that! And I may be ready to support that vision, too. But what Sovryn needs now, is to build out what it started with ahead of everybody else. It’s time for proper execution first and foremost. Whereas the forward thinking can go on in the background already.

My suggestion is, to use the existing resources for building out and promote the BEST sovereign finance platform on the best L2 as the basis for everything else that’s still to come. This is what I staked for. This is also where I have a personal use case and financial incentive. Thinking about alternative schooling doesn’t meet my financial incentive. Not before the Sovryn financial platform has been built out. Properly. If we don’t have that foundation, there’s no compelling reason to continue to stake?

This is serious. The Sovryn community is strong, yes, because the cause unites us. All other crypto projects would have already fallen apart under these conditions (DMANs and alike). But without a proper foundation, it will dwindle faster than @yago wants to imagine. The October community call turned Sovryn into a weak-founded discussion platform and donation-funded group for ideas of a free future world. I don’t see that ending well.

Yes, Sovryn can’t be everything at once. But it was meant to be DeFi on Bitcoin. If it turns into a sovereignty booster platform, then it needs a very different incentive structure. All this has to be crystal clearly put. I’m listening, because I may not see the full picture just yet. But these are my urgent thoughts as a staker.

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Actually, I would like @yago to start that debate you are afraid to begin. Maybe it’s time to hit the table and explain the idea you have to stop Sovryn from playing checkers. What should we do moving forward, if we’re not already doing it?

During the call, it became clear that the path is not Sovryn Layer, nor even what we are now. It’s rather about being creators of solutions, and doing so from an angle that no one has taken before. It’s the only way to avoid self-destruction.

What path do you envision starting? The uncertainty doesn’t just affect SOV’s price; it affects each of our confidence in Sovryn as a tool for change. You say you’ve been thinking about it for a long time and are waiting for the right moment to tell us.

Don’t wait any longer; the time is now.

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